Pandagon just posted an excellent discussion of sexism related to women's footwear. What I found particularly interesting are two of the comments:
And this response:
So which is it? Should we respect the rights of women (or any other marginalized group) to willingly surrender to oppressive rules of the kyriarchy? Or should we speak up when we see them engaging in behaviors that makes it more difficult for others to change the system?
I think both.
We all have to temper our ideals to our environment to some extent. Each of us is trying to make the best of what we're given to work with. Calling women out as traitors to the cause, shows no respect or empathy to the struggle they personally face in their lives. It alienates and divides, and ultimately increases our burden.
But we're not always aware of the ways in which we've internalized our culture's backwards values. I think it is appropriate to respectfully and tactfully communicate this when we see it happening. It should be done in a way that, rather than judging, is consciousness-raising and offers support and alternatives. The more we communicate the success we've had as individuals (I've stopped shaving my legs and it's going great), the more we can inspire others to stand up for their rights to make personal choices about appearance.
EDIT: I want to add that a friend of mine did an informal survey of the women she worked with in regard to eschewing leg-shaving. The responses were all negative and ran the gamut from, "It's wrong to have hairy legs because our culture says so," to "That's so disgusting I can't even think about it."
Not everyone engages in activities like leg-shaving because they feel like they have to--but plenty of women do. Those of us who can stand up an any issue (not all issues, necessarily, but even one helps) and say, "I don't perform that behavior; women don't have to perform that behavior," makes it easier for other women to recognize that they have a choice.
I feel like feminist discussions about uncomfortable footwear fall into the same patterns that we tend to get into with other body and appearance issues like shaving and dieting. Most feminist women can recognize that the pressure to be thin/hairless/high-heeled comes from the patriarchy and we object to it on principle, but every woman has her limits as far as how much personal sacrifice she is willing to make out there in the real world in order to make a principled stand against those unfair pressures.
I find that my life is more pleasant when I make certain compromises with the patriarchy and I think my fellow feminists should be understanding about that. Yes, I diet because being a size 12 instead of a size 18 makes my life easier in a number of ways. I will talk to anybody who will listen about body acceptance and health at every size, but up until I manage to change the world (I still hold out hope that I can do it) I have to live in the world as it is, and I don’t think that makes me a traitor to my fellow fat people. I also shave my legs and wear reasonably high heels for similar reasons. I wish women could refrain from getting on eachothers’ case about stuff like that because none of us is at fault for what the larger culture still expects of us and not everyone can be a martyr for the cause.
Comment #58: GumbyAnne
And this response:
GumbyAnne—no one raindrop thinks it’s responsible for the flood.
When we do things like shave, wear heels, put on makeup, etc, it’s not enough to understand that in doing so we capitulate to the standards of the patriarchy. We also have to understand that by doing so, we make it that much harder for women to break free of those expectations.
Comment #61: Mighty Ponygirl
So which is it? Should we respect the rights of women (or any other marginalized group) to willingly surrender to oppressive rules of the kyriarchy? Or should we speak up when we see them engaging in behaviors that makes it more difficult for others to change the system?
I think both.
We all have to temper our ideals to our environment to some extent. Each of us is trying to make the best of what we're given to work with. Calling women out as traitors to the cause, shows no respect or empathy to the struggle they personally face in their lives. It alienates and divides, and ultimately increases our burden.
But we're not always aware of the ways in which we've internalized our culture's backwards values. I think it is appropriate to respectfully and tactfully communicate this when we see it happening. It should be done in a way that, rather than judging, is consciousness-raising and offers support and alternatives. The more we communicate the success we've had as individuals (I've stopped shaving my legs and it's going great), the more we can inspire others to stand up for their rights to make personal choices about appearance.
EDIT: I want to add that a friend of mine did an informal survey of the women she worked with in regard to eschewing leg-shaving. The responses were all negative and ran the gamut from, "It's wrong to have hairy legs because our culture says so," to "That's so disgusting I can't even think about it."
Not everyone engages in activities like leg-shaving because they feel like they have to--but plenty of women do. Those of us who can stand up an any issue (not all issues, necessarily, but even one helps) and say, "I don't perform that behavior; women don't have to perform that behavior," makes it easier for other women to recognize that they have a choice.
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I agree with both as well. I don't know about shaving legs but I hate shaving my face because others think it's what one must do. I can only imagine the pain in the ass shaving legs is. O.O
ReplyDeleteI shave my legs because I like the feel of my legs when they are smooth. And wear heels or flats when I feel like it, not because some patriarchy is telling me what shoes I should wear. For me, it's a matter of personal preference, not even a compromise with patriarchy.
ReplyDeleteI agree that not all behaviors supported by the patriarchy are performed out of complicity. For instance, I wear make-up, and think it looks attractive on women--and men. The purpose of the fight is not to eliminate all of these behaviors, but to eliminate the requirement (rather than choice) to perform them. Thanks for commenting.
ReplyDeleteWomen need to stop blaming men for their own stupid fashion decisions. They dress uncomfortably not to impress or please men but to compete with each other.
ReplyDeleteAs a male, to me high heels border on obscenity. They are a western form of Chinese foot binding which was done on young girls to ensure permanently small but disfigured feet because tiny feet were considered dainty.
So how can you scapegoat men over that "darling pair of (high heel) shoes" as women would express it. You must enjoy it, notwithstnding the permanent damage that it causes to the feet and back.
And consider this: Men's formal wear hasn't changed for over 100 years. Still the same basic suit and tie, even in hot weather. Women have much more freedom in this area. Would you submit to having to dress as women did a century ago?
rblevy, your ignorance is showing. I highly recommend that you read the comments made at pandagon, because the assertion that men have nothing to do with women's fashion choices was brought up and refuted pretty much right away.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I'll make it easy on you. Go to comments 30 and 56. You'll find comment 48 interesting as well. It has been many women's experience that men police their appearance.
Please don't lump us all together. It's a stereotype that women go gaga over shoes when many of us couldn't care less about them.
Do you think the Chinese girls enjoyed the footbinding? What about women in cultures that practice genital mutilations, where mothers perform it upon their own daughters? Do you really think it's because they get some kind of pleasure from the feeling?
Of course not. They do it because of the cultural benefits. Part of which is competition with other women. But who are the judges in this competition? Men. Eliminate the prize (of men's approval/permission to participate in male-dominated activities) and you eliminate the need for women to compete amongst themselves.
Living in contrast to one's culture is an effort and often painful. Even awareness of culture is painful, so it is quite understandable for people to accept their own culture axiomatically.
ReplyDeleteWhat is our culture? We have been robbing most of the world for centuries and even now benefit from the privileges derived from that fact. To accept this as fact is painful in itself.
Working to overcome this situation is definitely a way to live, another is making things worse (which offers greater cultural benefits, btw).
This is no either/or situation, but rather one of more or less. To me it does not seem possible to live in total opposition to the bad aspects of our culture. It is rather a process of outgrowing, of leaving one's axioms behind.
Oh and I shave my face regularly
Excellent food for thought, HumanistDE.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand.
ReplyDeleteI read the first view as being the same as (or at least potentially/probably encompassing) your conclusion.
I agree that views one and two differ, such that the second contradicts the first/the conclusion.
How can you then conclude view one is deficient without input from view two?
Anonymous, I believe you're right, that the first comment can espouse the conclusion I made. But since the comment didn't express it directly, and could also be taken to mean that no one should criticize women's choices in any way, I felt the need to spell out my take on the issue.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of which, every girlfriend I have to figure out how to tactfully/convincingly tell them I don't like it when they wear lipstick.
ReplyDeleteSometimes it turns out they hate it but do it anyway, or they like to do it but only on special occasions, or they always like to do it. Sometimes they don't believe I don't like it, or get insulted. Obviously not all of the above are mutually exclusive.
Any thoughts?
I don't think there's anything wrong with telling your significant other when you find a particular style of dress/grooming attractive or impractical, or whatever. There are plenty of valid reasons for disliking lipstick and if you express yours I don't see why any woman should take that personally. If she does, it may be that you didn't express yourself clearly enough or it may just be that she's got some psychological hang-ups, which probably spells trouble for you anyway.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, expressing a preference is different from making a demand. You may feel strongly enough about it that you just flat out don't want your girlfriend to wear lipstick at all; maybe it's a deal-breaker for you. In which case, she has to decide if not wearing it is a deal-breaker for her, too, and it's better if you come to an understanding about these things before really entering a relationship.
But lipstick is more than just about how she looks. It has an effect on you in terms of taste, feel, and potentially making a mess on your body or clothes. In no way is it unreasonable for you to make your concerns known or for her to take them into account.
It is really annoying when people don't believe you. My ex didn't believe me when I told him I don't ever want to be given flowers. He couldn't understand why I was pissed off when he did it anyway. I think people like that are basing their relationship with you on stereotypes (all women like flowers and all men like lipstick, right? Not that I know your gender, but you get the idea), rather than getting to know you as a person. Doesn't make for a healthy or happy relationship.
Interesting post. I truly despise the expectation that in order to be deemed acceptable in a workplace or social situation that I must be thin, shave my legs and wear makeup. Despite this, I have an incredibly low self image so I feel the need to do it anyway. Unlike, the models in the Dove "Love You Body" campaigns and other such self image enhancing endeavors, my body is riddled with scars. If one is truly as disfigured as I am, then I can understand applying makeup. I think it is easier for women that do not have serious scars to criticize those that elect to wear makeup.
ReplyDeleteIt is so demoralizing to feel that the probability of being deemed acceptable as I am by the opposite sex is quite low. So I suppose that is why I wear makeup in work or social settings even though it infuriates me that I feel like I have to. It is also why go to great lengths to avoid social situations altogether. I would rather not risk the rejection or ridicule.
I know the cosmetics industry is predicated on convincing consumers that they are inadequate but it begs the question though: Are some people just plain ugly and undesirable as they are? I am not supporting the cosmetics industry but I often find the "love your body" movement to be too narrow in its inclusion of different women. Maybe when they show images of people with scars, missing limbs, etc., then I would be more open to the concept.
Or have I been so indoctrinated by our culture, that it is impossible for me to conceive of being deemed acceptable without temporary or permanent modification?
On another note, I have read many of your posts and I truly admire your expressivity and the way you address these issues. I am so glad I saw your comment on Pharyngula. I am a fellow escapee from that cult. The latent and explicit misogyny was a big alienating factor.
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ReplyDeleteThank you for the compliments, Alexandra! And congratulations on getting yourself extricated from that mess.
ReplyDeleteOur society definitely has a narrow definition for beauty. Even when they stray outside that standard, it doesn't deviate by much. Of course, I wouldn't expect much from Dove (owned by the same company that makes the misogynist Axe commercials). They have no interest in making women feel good about themselves--quite the opposite, in fact. They need you to feel bad about yourself (and good about their company) so you'll buy their product. So they present themselves as progressive and compassionate enough to cater to a wider range of women, while still keeping that range narrow enough to not encompass most women.
Ableism is another example of privilege we see in our society. We are inundated with images of women who have been airbrushed into "perfection" (to me, they look more like plastic dolls) and so we think that's what women are supposed to look like. If we had the opportunity to see more women of various looks in positive contexts, these would also become normal to us, and we could accept the beauty in them.
Comment continues . . .
. . . But everyone, absolutely everyone, is beautiful in the eyes of someone else, even physically. You may not appeal to the majority, but there are people in this world who will either (a) find you beautiful despite your scars and/or (b) find you beautiful because of the scars. The internet is a great tool for finding such people.
ReplyDeleteMany people who don't fit into cultural standards of beauty have found that the greatest factor in successfully finding dates is self-confidence. For everyone who might look at you and think, "Ugh, I wish she would hide that so I don't have to look at it," there are others who think, "She is so brave and beautiful. I wish I had the confidence to be myself like that. If she can . . . maybe I can, too." And the people in the first category will get over it when there are enough of us willing to stop hiding ourselves.
Which doesn't make it any easier to be one of the first women willing to dare to be "ugly" openly. And pressuring women, or demanding that they do this is unreasonable. But if any of us can manage it, even in just one or two areas, we can make it easier for others.